From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov Transcript for: Big Bite: Key Challenges Combating ISIS Description: Combating the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, best known as ISIS, is a U.S. national security priority. This fight requires vast military, humanitarian, and cybersecurity resources, among other things. We'll talk about some key issues around the U.S. strategy for countering ISIS in this longer form podcast. Related GAO Work: GAO-17-687SP: Countering ISIS and Its Effects: Key Issues for Oversight Released: July 2017 [ Music ] [ Charles Johnson: ] One of the big concerns is ISIS spreading in the western culture. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] From GAO's Office of Public Affairs, this is the Watchdog Report, Bit Bite Edition, an in-depth discussion with GAO experts about major findings from our investigations and what they mean for you. I'm Sarah Kaczmarek. As the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, best known as ISIS, emerged, it seized territory in the Middle East and launched terror attacks in a number of countries. The United States is spending billions of dollars to fight ISIS. A team led by Charles Johnson, a director in our International Affairs and Trade team, recently reviewed U.S. efforts to combat ISIS. His report laid out some specific areas for congressional oversight, so I asked him for an overview. [ Charles Johnson: ] Yes, in the report, we do note that countering ISIS remains a key part of the United States and its international partners. Among those key issues that we identify, which is about 9 of them, focuses on U.S. efforts to train and equip Iraqi security forces, as well as the Syrian opposition forces. We also focus on the need to ensure that there is adequate accountability and oversight of humanitarian systems that's provided in the region, and as well as efforts to combat ISIS, spread of its ideology globally, and including ISIS's use of social media to promote its violent extremism ideology. We also address the need to disrupt ISIS financing, and, more importantly or just as important, efforts to mitigate against threats to the U.S. homeland. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And we're going to unpack each of these issues. First, I want to go into training a little bit more. As you mentioned, training is a really important component of combating ISIS. What's the status and the effectiveness of our training efforts? [ Charles Johnson: ] Well, let me start by going back to 2014. During that time, the Iraqi security forces collapsed under the pressure of ISIS, and it was during that time that the U.S. decided to begin to get re-engaged in retraining and re-equipping the Iraqi security forces. Since that time, we have seen some progress, but I would overall say the results have been mixed. The good news is that there have been some improvement in the capability of the Iraqi security forces, in particular, the Iraqi army brigades. we've seen sort of 50 percent of them improve their capabilities to take offensive operations. On the other side though, the number of individuals that completed the training was well below what the U.S. had expected, thus resulting in us to only be able to equip about 60 percent of the security forces we intended to equip at the time. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And we have seen progress with Iraqi forces retaking Mosul recently. Would you say that the training we've provided has played a role there? [ Charles Johnson: ] Oh, absolutely! And just to the training, as we say in our report, the U.S. advise and assist efforts also have played a key impact, along with our coalition partners. Much of that involves airstrikes that have helped the Iraqi security forces retake territories, particularly in Mosul, which was a key goal that they had laid out. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So, another important aspect, not only for Iraqi forces, but also Syrian opposition forces, is making sure recipients of aid are properly vetted. Is the current vetting process effective? [ Charles Johnson: ] Well, the U.S. law does prohibit DOD from providing assistance to Iraqi security force or Syrian opposition forces who have been deemed to have gross human rights violations, or be associated with terrorist groups or the Iranian government. We have seen that vetting has occurred in Syria and Iraq before we provided that assistance, however, we did identify various areas for which we think there can be improvement in State and DOD's policies and practices. But we do think there could be drastic improvement in DOD's record keeping to ensure that there's no training or equipping being provided to forces or units that have not been vetted. [ Music ] [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] There's a major humanitarian crisis in Syria and Iraq as a result of the fight against ISIS. Many are leaving their countries in droves, so, I asked Charles, what challenges is the U.S. facing in its role to help alleviate that crisis? [ Charles Johnson: ] Yeah, the ongoing crisis in, particularly in Syria and Iraq, has created a dire humanitarian situation in both countries, and in that region for that matter. The Syrian situation, some have described as the worst since World War II. USAID and the State Department have both been actively involved in providing humanitarian relief and assistance in the region. The issue there is that much of that assistance is provided through international organizations, like United Nations, non-governmental organizations, thus the U.S. agency is not having the full visibility into whether the assistance is reaching the intended targets and audience. There's also other challenges associated with that, in particular, the assistance being provided in areas that are insecure, some of the areas are besieged, and also there's concerns about fraud, waste, and abuse, and whether the assistance is getting to the right individuals. If there's, you know, bribery is going on, if there's a switching out of goods that we're providing for other type of goods. So we do raise this as a key oversight issue, mainly because it's an important topic, but also the U.S. has invested in several billions of dollars, up to 5, 6 billion or more in humanitarian relief, and we think this is something that warrants a lot of congressional oversight and attention by the administration. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So this is really a thorny issue because in some cases it's just really hard to get the aid to people that need it, and then you have also are raising concerns about potential fraud of aid that is getting to the area, maybe getting into the wrong hands, or people who it wasn't intended for. [ Charles Johnson: ] Yeah, that's definitely a key issue and a key challenge, but we do think State and USAID should adapt their plans to that situation and that environment that they're working in, and that's something they have not had to do before in other countries that, for which a security environment is not conducive to us delivering the aide, and we do think this is a critical situation that they really need to pay more attention to. [Background Music] [ Announcer: ] Interested in learning more from the U.S. Government Accountability Office? Be our friend and like us on Facebook. Our Facebook page has the latest information on our reports, blog posts, podcasts, videos, photos, interactive graphics, and much, much more. That's Facebook.com/USGAO. That's Facebook.com/USGAO. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So you're going to talk some about the ISIS threat in Iraq in relation to Mosul and ISIS losing territory there, but what type of threat does ISIS present beyond Iraq and Syria and how are U.S. agencies trying to address that threat? [ Charles Johnson: ] ISIS is a global threat. I mean, they have actually branched out and expanded beyond Iraq and Syria, and we find a lot of presence of ISIS or ISIS affiliates in Africa in particular. There are various U.S. agencies involved in what the U.S. government calls, building foreign partner capacity to address those threats. Some of those efforts include counter-terrorism related issues, building capacity to do law enforcement, also to prevent terrorist travelers from traveling, counter-messaging, one of the issues is ISIS's effective use of social media. In that particular case, we know the U.S. is involved heavily in trying to build partner capacity in that area. The important thing we highlight in our key issues report is that U.S. needs to make sure that those efforts are coordinated among the various agencies and our foreign partners in terms of how we're putting our resources forward and what we're investing in, and to know that some of those investments are effective. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And as ISIS loses territory in Iraq, as we were discussing, do you see ISIS really focusing on gaining territory in other places, like North Africa? [ Charles Johnson: ] I think some of that is already taking place, where we see ISIS spreading. I think one of the bigger concerns is ISIS spreading in the western culture, and particularly concerns about the homeland, making sure we're doing our due diligence to protect that. We have multiple U.S. agencies involved in that, whether you're talking our State Department, Defense Department, Justice Department, different components of our Homeland Security components, again, it's important that those efforts are coordinated, that there is good relationship with our foreign partners, in terms of information sharing, data collection, data sharing, there's an openness by our foreign partners to learn some of the best practices that we use ourselves in the United States. You know, some of those challenges that I think still remain are the political will of some other countries to undertake some events. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And one key step to combatting ISIS, we'll also be checking off ISIS financing. What are some of the key challenges to doing that? [ Charles Johnson: ] Well, ISIS has been pretty successful at financing some of its operations. Historically, oil revenues was the means by which they gained most of their funding for their operations. They have began to resort to other means, such as taxing local populations, kidnappings for ransom, selling lootedantiquities and things of that nature. So, over time, they have adapted from oil revenues being their main source of funding to other means. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And what's the U.S. doing to combat and prevent ISIS from getting this financing? [ Charles Johnson: ] Well, Sarah, there's been various U.S. agencies engaged in efforts to combat ISIS terror financing efforts. Among those, DOD, for example, our Treasury Department, State Department, you have our Justice Department involved when there's a foreign terrorist organization being designated. What are the penalties and sanctions we can put on them? The U.S. also has targeted oil facilities to destroy them, as well as looking to build and form partner capacity in terms of learning how to detect or prevent terror financing, in particular. So, a lot has been done in that area. We see it is a key issue that remains on the table, something that continues to emerge over time to make sure that we're on top of those things before they actually take place. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well, and one of these emerging areas that you've mentioned already is ISIS's use of social media or the internet to try to spread its radical views more widely. Can you describe U.S. efforts to counter those online threats and how successful would you say they've been? [ Charles Johnson: ] Well, Sarah, let me first note that ISIS has been very sophisticated and very professional in what it's done. I think some have, you know, touted ISIS as having a pretty professional presentation or way of capturing the attention of others globally. I would say ISIS has been pretty successful, and the U.S. has learned, over time, to adapt to that. Initially there were concerns and criticism that the U.S. was not a credible voice. I think since that time, and we've looked at this over the last couple of years, the U.S. has focused more of its attention on identifying credible voices. Supporting those credible voices through funding, through training, through helping them learn some of our techniques, in terms of best practices for messaging. That's also important in terms of making sure that the U.S. is learning from the private sector. A lot of the social media platforms, as we know, are run by the private sector, and those individuals that can help and -- and help the U.S. shape its counter-messaging efforts, and also help build our foreign partner capacity, which is something that the U.S. does invest some of its resources in. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So, when you say credible voices, could you give me a few examples of what that means? [ Charles Johnson: ] Some examples of credible voices could be some of the local religious leaders, victims of ISIS, as well as their family members who may have lost some of their children or spouses as a result of attacks from ISIS, are deemed by some as more credible voices than the U.S. government. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So it's kind of the idea to let people who -- who've really had more of a first-hand experience or who are more personally affected by this potentially be speakers of this issue versus the U.S. government out there on Twitter saying, no one should follow ISIS? [ Charles Johnson: ] Well, I think that's been some of the thinking lately in terms of how the U.S. has been adapting, given the need to build the capacity of those individuals and to support the locals and support the governments in their efforts to counter ISIS messaging, but that's been deemed to be [Background Music] another effective platform that can be used. [ Music ] [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So with the U.S. using military, humanitarian, and cybersecurity resources to fight ISIS, I had to wonder, what's the bottom line here when it comes to this report? [ Charles Johnson: ] While we have seen some recent progress in ISIS losing territory, particularly in Mosul, ISIS has not been decimated. ISIS remains a threat, a high priority for the U.S. and our coalition partners, and including globally, and we think this is something that continues to warrant a lot of attention. A lot of money and resources, billions of dollars are going into this effort to counter and combat ISIS. ISIS is branching out, as we said, I think is something that we don't want to lose visibility in on [Background Music], we want to stay on top of this, I think this is why we're highlighting this as a key issue. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Thanks for listening to another Watchdog Report, Big Bite Edition podcast. If you'd like to hear more podcasts like this, or if you want to send us a question or comment, shoot us an email at, podcasts@gao.gov. Be sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing to our podcast on iTunes. The Watchdog Report, Big Bite, is a production of GAO's Office of Public Affairs.