From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov Transcript for: The Size and Composition of Navy Ship Crews Description: If a Navy ship doesn't have the right number and mix of sailors, it may end up overworking its crew-which can have detrimental effects on safety, morale, and retention. How does the Navy determines its crew needs? What does this mean for a larger fleet in the future? Related GAO Work: GAO-17-413: Navy Force Structure: Actions Needed to Ensure Proper Size and Composition of Ship Crews Released: May 2017 [ Background Music ] [ John Pendleton: ] I think we can chalk this one up as an illustration of the no-such-thing-as-a-free-lunch adage. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Welcome to GAO's Watchdog Report, your source for news and information from the U.S. Government Accountability Office. I'm Sarah Kaczmarek. The right number and mix of sailors is essential to safe operations of a Navy ship, not to mention morale. A team led by John Pendleton, a director in our Defense Capabilities and Management team, recently looked at the Navy's process for planning ship crews. So, I asked John, how does the Navy determine how many and what types of sailors it needs to operate a ship? [ John Pendleton: ] Well, ships are complicated, and so is this math. They have hundreds, sometimes even thousands, of personnel onboard. Essentially, the Navy adds up all the time it'll take to do the many jobs on a ship, the maintenance, standing watch, to steering the ship. And, some of the ships have complicated weapons systems that take a lot of time and attention. You get the picture. But, once they have all that work added up, then they look at how many people they'll need to cover it, and what skills they'll need. And, this forms the foundation for ships' manning requirements. Now, this is not your average nine-to-five job. The Navy actually assumes that sailors will work 70 hours per week while at sea. That's 10 hours per day, 7 days a week. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So then, did your team find that this process actually really takes into account what's needed to operate a ship? [ John Pendleton: ] I think the process is good in theory, but we found some concerns about how it's implemented in practice. I mean, let's start with that 70-hour work week. The reality has been quite different. An internal Navy study found in 2014 that sailors were actually working about 90 hours per week, between 12 and 13 hours per day, on average. Another problem that we found with the process was that the Navy was not calculating how much work was needed when the ship was in port. Some sailors leave the ship when it's in port to, you know, take vacation or retrain, but we heard from sailors that too few were remaining aboard some ships, and overworking those who had to stay on the ship. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So, what happens when the Navy doesn't get these numbers right? Is it, just really sounds like an impact on what it's asking of sailors. [ John Pendleton: ] No, that's it, exactly. Fairly simple. If you underestimate the number of crew needed, then those left on the smaller crew have to work more. The amount of work doesn't go down, and that's how the Navy got 90-hour work weeks. And, 90 hours actually underestimates how much they work, believe it or not. When you add in their training time and administrative duties, the Navy found in their study that sailors were on duty 108 hours per week. That's a pretty rigorous job. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Okay, so my big question for you then is, what do all these challenges mean as the Navy plans to increase the size of its fleet? [ John Pendleton: ] I think that's a great question, and the most important one here. The Navy has identified the need to grow the fleet to as many as 355 ships, which would be about 30 percent bigger than it is now. And, while the Navy has identified the need to grow the fleet, they have not identified the personnel that will be needed to man that fleet. Another complication is that the Navy doesn't have much experience with some of the ships coming into the fleet now. Crew sizes tend to grow as the Navy gains familiarity with a new ship, not get smaller. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So, let me ask you then, does the Navy have a clear picture of how many sailors it needs now, or even just in the future? [ John Pendleton: ] No, not really, and this has a lot of implications, especially cost implications. When you look over the life cycle of a ship, the cost to operate it and support it tends to be about 70 percent or more of the total cost. So you buy it, everyone's focused on the cost to buy this ship, but owning it is where most of the costs are. So, as a result, the full cost of the larger fleet is far from clear. [ Background Music ] [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] All right. The Navy has a lot to consider as it looks to expand its fleet. I knew John's team would have some recommendations here. [ John Pendleton: ] We make four specific recommendations, but they boil down to the Navy getting solid information about how much sailors actually work, and then use that to calculate manpower requirements now and going forward. And, with the Navy planning to get bigger, I think these recommendations are extremely timely and important. [ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So, finally, what do you see is the bottom line of this report? [ John Pendleton: ] Sarah, I think we can chalk this one up as an illustration of the no-such-thing-as-a-free-lunch adage. The Navy reduced ship manning to save money, but it just didn't work out that way, and Navy sailors paid the price in terms of workload, and the ships deteriorated. Total ship costs actually went up. As the Navy expands the fleet, it needs to heed the lessons it's learned here and avoid making the same mistakes in the future. 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